floppy + write-protected USB-ZIP > boot fails

Forum: USB booting
Topic: floppy + write-protected USB-ZIP > boot fails
started by: Key

Posted by Key on April 09 2006,12:15

I have made an USB-ZIP drive with standard boot-options (restore=sda2 mydsl=sda2). Everything works fine. This USB-ZIP-drive (alone) boots, it doesn't matter if it is write-protected or write-enabled.

BUT, if I boot first from an USB-Bootfloppy and then from the USB-ZIP-drive in connection, the USB-ZIP-drive only boots complete, if it is write-enabled. Otherwise is shows the following messages during boot:

{CRE}looking for DSL image in ....
Setting paths: .. not found
.. not found .. not found ..
directory nonexistent
Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on 1:03

Keyboard LEDs blink and I have to power of the computer.

Why can't I boot from a write-protected USB-ZIP-drive when I use an USB-bootfloppy before?
What will be stored on the USB-ZIP-drive during boot?
I tried the boot-option "norestore" as floppy boot parameter but without success.

Again:

1) Floppy + write-enabled USB-ZIP > boots fine
2) Floppy + write-protected USB-ZIP > boot fails
3) Only write-enabled USB-ZIP > boots fine
4) Only write-protected USB-ZIP > boots fine

Who can help?
Thank you

Posted by Key on April 10 2006,18:24

No software solution for this?

Posted by cbagger01 on April 11 2006,04:45

Wow, that's a strange problem.

I would expect to see the same behavior from a USBZIP direct boot vs. a USB boot floppy. They are essentially the same boot method, except the IN-USE bootloader, kernel and initial ramdisk are stored on the floppy instead of on the USBZIP device.

Do you see this behavior on the same PC, or do you use two different computers for your test cases?

Posted by Key on April 11 2006,18:53

I have tested this on 2 computers (IBM Thinkpad and an ordinary computer), both have the same behavior. Therefore I think that is everywhere the same.

Unfortunately, I only have 1 USB-pen-drive that can be write-protected. This, as USB-ZIP installed pen-drive with DSL 2.3 final, is a 256 MB TwinMOS Mobile Disk Z4.

From this USB-pen-drive booted DSL 2.3 final (without using any USB-bootfloppy, as my ordinary computer can boot directly from USB), I have made the USB-bootfloppy. My Thinkpad requires this USB-bootfloppy in order to access and boot from the USB-pen-drive. But as already written, this problem occurs on both computers, when the USB-pen-drive is write-protected and the first boot-steps have been done with the USB-bootfloppy.

Posted by Key on April 12 2006,17:21

It seems like nobody else has this problem?

Anybody has tried the same with a write-protectable USB-pen?

Posted by Key on April 16 2006,17:48

I have also tried now with many different boot options from floppydisk. But I didn't get it working.

Which kind of problem is this? Who can solve it?

Do you think that it is a Knoppix problem?
Do you think that it is a DSL problem?
Do you think that it is a USB-pen problem?

I would like to boot from floppydisk and have the USB-pen write protected. I still do not know, if other users have same problems, when they do the same. Nobody with a write-protectable USB-pen? Any ideas, what I can do / test ?

Thank you

Posted by tecker on April 17 2006,21:18

Hmm Im having similar problems but i cant get the usb pen to unlock. WIndows AND dsl both report that the pen is locked. All i did was run the Make USB-ZIp script.

On boot it gives me the kernel panic. I dont know why but I would like a solution.

Posted by Key on April 18 2006,16:47

tecker:

That's also strange.

Which kind of USB-pen did you use?
Of which brand is your USB-pen?
Does it have a write-protect switch?

What a pity that there are so few replies.

Either most of the users don't have write-protectable USB-pens or they don't use it in connection with a floppydisk.

Looking forward for more replies and maybe a helping solution.

Posted by tecker on April 18 2006,19:25

It is a generic USB got it on sale for half price figured i would mess around with it. The install for Pendrive infor reports
Vendor: Flash
Model Drive UT_USB20
Type: Direct-Access.
Size: 128 MB.

The box i got it in doesn't have anything really specific about the company.

I installed once as a USB-Zip but it wouldnt boot. Now i have been SFdisking the parameters per the geometry but am affraid that it may be toast. It would be nice as something like this has happened before.

I also do not plan on using a floppy in cordination with the PenDrive but it may come to that.

Posted by Key on April 29 2006,07:17

Still no news ?

Nobody else has a floppy and a write-protectable usb-pen ?

As described before, I still get a kernel panic when I first boot from floppy-disk and second from the write-protected usb-pen. This problem only happens, when the usb-pen is write-protected. I have no idea, why it has to be write-enabled, if you first boot from floppy-disk.

Hope there will be a solution for this.
Thank you in advance.

Posted by Key on May 01 2006,06:02

Strange Strange Strange Strange ..

again no replies

Any programmer / Linux expert here,
who can tell, what the problem is?

- Did somebody test it, without having the same problem?
- Will new DSL versions don't have this problem?
- All hints for finding the reasons are welcome.

Thanks

Posted by tecker on May 01 2006,14:49

Hey Key,

OK. Try this. When booting from a floppy type (dsl usbwait) im guessing that either it is not enabling the device or more likely that when you boot drictly from the Write protected floppy it is actualy unlocking (somehow). My drive when it is "Write protected after running the Make USB-ZIP script will not boot untill i "Unlock" it somehow.

Try the locked direct boot on some other computers and try the Floppy again also.

Something is going on in either the drive or the bios. The kernel i dont think (that is my next guess) is the problem.

Another idea is to remake the floppy.

Posted by Key on May 01 2006,17:37

Thank you very much for your answer, tecker.

Unfortunately, "dsl usbwait" as boot parameter, when booting from floppy first, also doesn't help.

I have tried this on two different computers:
(1) IBM Thinkpad with Intel Pentium CPU
(2) Ordinary PC with AMD chipset and AMD CPU

No problem on ordinary PC (2) to boot from hardware-write-protected USB-pen (without using floppy-disk).

Problem on ordinary PC (2) and IBM Thinkpad (1) when first boot from floppy-disk and second boot from USB-pen. I'm depending on this solution on my IBM Thinkpad, as it can't boot directly from USB-pen.

BUT! If I have the USB-pen write enabled, it also boots fine with using a floppy-disk first.

What is the problem, booting first from floppy-disk and second from a write-proteced USB-pen? I don't understand

I have also remade the floppy again, but without success.
Also notice that there is no problem when the USB-pen is write-enabled.

Hope that a programmer / Linux expert can help?

Posted by Key on May 05 2006,16:19

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!

please ....

Posted by Key on May 07 2006,14:01

Today, I had the idea, that maybe a look to the file-dates could give an explanation for this strange behavior.

1) Write-protected USB-pen without using floppy disk:
When I boot from the write protected USB-pen, the whole file-system on this USB-pen has files with original file-dates.
No surprise, as the USB-pen was write-protected (with hardware-switch), therefore no changes.

2)a) Write-protected USB-pen with using floppy disk:
When I boot from the floppy-disk first and from the write-protected USB-pen second, it doesn't make sense as the system chrashes with an error code (see previous messages).

2)b) Write-enabled USB-pen with using floppy disk:
When I boot from the floppy-disk first and from the write-enabled USB-pen second, everything works fine.
Afterwards, I have checked the file-dates in mnt/sda2, where the backup-file and the opera-uci-files are stored. No changes on the file-dates. These file-dates have older dates.
But when I look to the mnt - directory, where you see all the drives: sda1, sda2, .. I saw on these 1024 byte "files" that they had the actual date. Therefore I think that there has been an access to them during boot. But what is written there and why is it only when booting from a floppy-disk before?

What a pity that there are soooo few replies.

Booting first from a floppy-disk and second from a CD should have the same effekt. Maybe you can try this?

Hope somebody can help and explain what the reason for this strange behavior is.

Thank you very much in advance.

Posted by cbagger01 on May 08 2006,04:49

The /mnt folder is part of the dynamic filesystem that contains mount points for each device. They are built into the RAMdisk upon each bootup during hardware auto-detection.

Therefore, the new date/time is normal behavior.

The reason why nobody can explain the strange behavior with the write-protect tab is because:

Nobody knows the answer.

I sure don't. And I doubt that there are hundreds of people here with the answer tucked away in their memories that are unwilling to share it with you.

I am sorry that I cannot help you further but if a new insight pops into my head I will post it here.

Good Luck.

Posted by ~thc on May 08 2006,10:21

i agree. i know that there are usb pendrives out there which can be switched to read only (never used or touched one). i know that there is a usb boot floppy image for computers with usb booting problems (never had to use it). but personally i can not think of a single practical use to boot a write proteced usb pendrive with an usb floppy (well, yes, 'Key' tries to).

according to my point of view 'Key' may be the only person on this planet actually trying to accomplish this.

Posted by cbagger01 on May 08 2006,16:40

Even if he is not the only person on the planet, it still changes nothing.

If nobody here knows the answer to his problem, then it will go unsolved, regardless of how many people experience it.

I am not trying to be rude, I am just trying to explain that his requests are going unanswered because "nobody knows the answer" and not because people here are mean or selfish when it comes to sharing information.

Posted by roberts on May 08 2006,17:21

Or they don't own or have access to such a device, e.g., latest wreless cards, usb hubs, and hardware write protected pendrives. Many times issues can be solved given access to the specific devices.

Posted by u2musicmike on May 08 2006,18:03

Key,

It sounds like you already tried everything. I did a pendrive install to a 128M Lexar this weekend and I ran into a few problems. First I installed USB HDD but couldn't get it boot so I downloaded the floppy image and tried it but no boot. Then I reinstalled as USB ZIP and it still wouldn't boot with or without the floppy. Finally I was giving up and used the floppy tool to reformat the floppy and found out the floppy was bad. The USB boot script doesn't verify the floppy disk after writing. I made a new boot floppy with the floppy tool and it worked. Your problem sounds more like some kind of usb driver problem but you might try a different floopy.

Posted by Key on May 08 2006,19:46

Thanks everybody for giving some feedback.
Better no helping feedback than no feedback at all

I can't imagine that it is the floppy, because there is absolutely no problem when the pendrive is write enabled.
I have tried many times now. Always the same.

Well, I understand that not many people use a foppy and a write-protectable pendrive with DSL.
Do you think that you can also try this with a floppy and a CD? This should have the same effekt.
I don't know, if it is also possible to test with a pendrive that can be write-protected with software. I only have a TwinMos pendrive, that can be write-protected with a hardware-switch.

Unfortunately, I do not know much about Linux-programming with building kernels and so on. I don't know which programm-code is owned by DSL and which is owned by Knoppix or something else. Therefore I don't really understand, why nobody knows what the reason for this strange behavior is. Do you understand me now, why I was asking all the time?

Ok, but now I know why there were so few replies.
Nevertheless, thank you all.
Maybe somebody has an idea soon, what the reason for this is.

Posted by linux4all on May 29 2006,16:20

Key,
I do not have an answer to your problem, but I do understand your reason for wanting to write protect your USB flash drive. These drives can only be written to for a finite number of times before they wear out, so write protecting them is something you would want to do if you don't intend to purposely change some of their contents. It would be good to know also that the operating system did not write data to the flash drive on each boot, thus insuring a longer life.
Sorry I couldn't help, but all things considered, I'm now thinking twice about transferring my DSL to a flash drive.
Dick.

Posted by humpty on May 30 2006,05:58

I would have liked to try this out but I don't have a floppy drive at home, (which is ironic 'cos I can only boot from floppy at work).

Something I would check though, is that the floppy was made with the same version of DSL as the pendrive. I usually get boot problems if they don't match.

Also, have you tried both versions (standard/usb) of Make Boot Floppy?

Posted by Key on May 30 2006,20:32

I was happy when I saw your replies, although I have hoped to find a solution in them

Please notice that this strange behaviour only occured yet in connection with a floppy-disk.
If you boot from a write-protected usb-pen without using a floppy-disk before, there probably won't be any write-accesses to the usb-pen. I didn't test this fully out yet, but at least there were no errors during boot with this process.

Hmmmm ..
different DSL versions on floppy-disk and on usb-pen?
Could be, I have to check this again in the next days.
But I have tried many different things.

What a pity that nobody else has tried it yet with a floppy-disk and a write-protected usb pen in connection.

Posted by Key on June 11 2006,18:46

"Something I would check though, is that the floppy was made with the same version of DSL as the pendrive. I usually get boot problems if they don't match."

Finally I have found the time to try again:

I have downloaded the ordinary DSL 2.4 image and wrote this to a CD-Rom. Next, the CD-Rom has been used for booting DSL from it. With the "right-mouse-click-menu", I gave the order to the system to make an USB-ZIP pendrive installation (no special options have been choosen, beside "de" as german language parameter). Then I have used this installed USB-ZIP pendrive (already in write protected mode!) for booting DSL again. No problem, everything was fine.

But, as you already know, I had to make an USB-bootfloppy in order to make my older IBM-Thinkpad computer bootable from the USB-ZIP pendrive in serial connection with an USB-bootfloppy. Therefore I used the "right-mouse-click-menu" again and gave the order to make an USB-bootfloppy. Connection to the Internet has been made by the system and I was asked for a floppydisk. For this USB-bootfloppy, a fresh formatted floppydisk has been used. I assume that the system has choosen the correct USB-bootfloppy image file automatically. From previous boot, the USB-ZIP pendrive was already write-protected. I did the switch on the USB-bootfloppy also to write-protect.

And then, what do you think?
Did it work with the wite-protected USB-ZIP pendrive in serial connection with the USB-bootfloppy for start?

No, unfortunately not!

Again the same problem.
If I only boot from the write-protected USB-ZIP pendrive, everything is ok, but if I boot first from the USB-bootfloppy and second fromt the write-protected USB-ZIP pendrive, the system aborts with a kernel panic during access to the USB-ZIP pendrive.

So it is clear that it is no issue of different DSL versions on the USB-bootfloppy and the USB-ZIP pendrive.

Still hoping that somebody will find the reason for this problem. Which programmer knows the responsible code?

Posted by humpty on June 11 2006,22:41

ok, i tried it and your observation can be verified. so at least you can sleep better at nights.

the floppy boot files (either the minirt24.gz or linux24) are smaller than the standard cd/hd/usb boot files in order to fit on the floppy. so i can only guess that they are lacking something to recognise a write protected boot device.

i don't know if you can specify something different like initrd=/dev/sda1/minirt24.gz
in syslinux.cfg (hmm thinking about it probably not, it's a chicken/egg situation). but it would be nice to know.

perhaps it's better to forget all about this and just boot 'toram',
then re-mount the usb-drive as read-only ?

Posted by Key on June 12 2006,21:18

Thank you very much for your investigations, humpty.
Now it is evident.

I also thought, that this problem must be related to the usb-bootfloppy imagefile. But I'm wondering if there is no possibility to make this usb-bootfloppy imagefile working with write-protectable USB-pens?

Maybe I will try your proposal soon, with "initrd=/dev/sda1/minirt24.gz" in syslinux.cfg. Let's check if this will work.

Posted by Key on July 02 2006,08:58

Quote (Key @ June 12 2006,17:18)

Maybe I will try your proposal soon, with "initrd=/dev/sda1/minirt24.gz" in syslinux.cfg. Let's check if this will work.

I have tried now to modify the syslinux.cfg file on the bootfloppy, but with next boot, I discovered that no changes have been made there, although I have saved the file without an error. I don't know what the problem was.

But again to the bootfloppy image file:
Is there no way to update it, so that it will work with write-protected USB-pens?
I don't know, if there will be also updates on the bootfloppy image files?
Maybe there is a better compression possible or something other could be removed from the bootfloppy for more space?
Who can tell us more about this?

Thank you in advance.

Posted by humpty on July 02 2006,17:09

it seems like you need the floppy to boot your laptop.

does your laptop show the usb-pen as a drive letter if
you boot with a dos-disk ?
if so, you can use a bootable dos-floppy-disk to cd into
your usb-pen. From there it can use loadlin to boot into dsl.

Posted by Key on Nov. 11 2006,16:02

//

Quote (roberts @ Nov. 10 2006,13:42)

Key, This is not really an RC issue. But nevertheless, I did try with USB-ZIP write protected and write protected boot floppy. Worked just fine. I know my write protect switch is functioning, as USB-ZIP creates two partitions. When I try to mount the second partition, it gives the warning about a write-protected device. I use the standard boot floppy with the fromusb boot option. Also was able to boot directly from write protected USB-ZIP. It's too bad that there are not better standards in usb booting from the actual pendrives, geometry and sometimes hidden drives, to the computer bios and their ability to find and boot based on the myriad of these drive parameters. Reminds me of the early days of cdrom drives and each needed their own dos drivers.

//

Thank you for your investigations in this case, roberts, although this is of course no RC issue.

But now I know, that it must work in some way.

I will buy another write-protectable usb-pen, get the latest DSL version and use the fromusb boot option with a standard boot floppy. Hope it will work then.

Thanks again

//

>>>>

NEW STATUS REPORT OF FURTHER INVESTIGATIONS:

I have tried now 3 different usb-pens with write-protect switches:

- Twin-Mos (possible to password-protect)
- Trekstor (simple usb-pen without special features)
- Intenso (simple usb-pen without special features)

All these 3 usb-pens do fail to boot when a bootfloppy has been used before and the usb-pen is set to write-protected. Therefore I do not think, that the usb-pen is the problem.

Roberts wrote, that he had success, trying a kingston usb-pen.

What could be the problem?

Roberts wrote, that he has used a standard boot floppy with the "fromusb" boot option.

I have always used an usb-bootfloppy.
Could this be the reason?

Is there a difference between:
a) an usb-bootfloppy
b) a standard bootfloppy with "fromusb" option
?

What is the difference?

I have not tried it yet, but I will do it soon.
Looking for further information on this issue. Thanks.

Posted by roberts on Nov. 11 2006,16:54

Perhaps because the boot floppy that you are using is from DSL v0.8 and the I am suggesting, and works for me, is from DSL v2.3. The new standard boot floppy was announced in the change log for DSL v2.3

BTW, I dug out an old copy of V0.8 usb bootfloppy and I get a failure when trying to boot from write protected pendrive.

Posted by humpty on Nov. 11 2006,21:16

i can't wait for your findings key, keep it up.

Posted by Key on Nov. 12 2006,04:57

Quote (roberts @ Nov. 11 2006,11:54)

Obviously, I was using an old bootfloppy.

The last bootfloppy which i have made was done by using any RC of DSL 2.3 or maybe an even earlier version. At this time, there were two different versions available (usb-bootfloppy and a standard bootfloppy). I was always using the usb-bootfloppy, as it worked fine, as long as no write-protected usb-pen has been used in connection with the bootfloppy.

Today, I have made a new boot flopy with DSL 3.1 RC3.
With this, I have tried the same as before with 2 different usb-pens. In the command line from the bootfloppy boot, I have typed in the following "dsl fromusb".

I AM HAPPY! I THINK IT WORKS NOW FINALLY!

I have to do some further tests and verify that the write-protection switch was really set, but everything was ok with the first tests.

Now I am looking for the final release of DSL 3.1 before I will re-install my usb-pen. Hope it will be ready soon

Thanks for your information and your help, roberts