DSL Ideas and Suggestions :: for floppyless people

Quote (curaga @ Mar. 12 2007,01:25)

It's just an alternate solution which could be listed on the wiki...

Solution for what? The usual bootloaders are sufficient for the conditions you've described. Seems like reinventing the wheel with a square peg.

Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 12 2007,03:42)

Quote (curaga @ Mar. 12 2007,01:25)

It's just an alternate solution which could be listed on the wiki...

Solution for what? The usual bootloaders are sufficient for the conditions you've described. Seems like reinventing the wheel with a square peg.

A harsh assessment, but still... [Did not want to reference the IMG directly, because that's stealing, even if it's just a wee bit o' bandwidth...]

I do see the point of curanga's original post though, and it is a good one. M$ programs and systems do not play nicely with others, as you've probably noticed.

So... If Windows or the hardware won't let you boot an alternative OS [and why would M$ want to let you do that?] then booting DSL from within a Windows session, once, does seem like a good alternative. But remember you'd only have to do that *once*, because while you've got the Brave Little Penguin up and running, you can also use it to mess with the MBR and install Grub. Yes right there, right under the Giant's nose. Anyway, I think that's what curaga had in mind when he/she posted about alt boot methods. Just the floppy part was a bit off.

You'd probably have to disable any antivirus software first though [no, *first* disconnect any/all network connections, so the Giant won't catch cold while its guard's down]. Norton AV hassled me once about leaving a floppy in the drive during shutdown, because having an infected floppy in there at *startup* is a great way to catch a boot-sector bug. So Norton probably keeps an eye out for weird stuff, like for example, some upstart app screwing around with the MBR... Gotta be up to something.

Sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said. Old news to you, maybe, but it's *all* new to me. :-)

I wonder if it's possible to reboot the machine, not just DSL, from within DSL, within Windows? Okay, so you might get hassled later about how `Windows Was Not Shut Down Properly' [that is, assuming you ever let Windows start up again], but hey, it seems only fair if the thing wouldn't let *you* start up properly.

Umm... Okay, back to the MBR.

I've been thinking, and reading a lot about boot-loaders lately, because really, it's the first thing most newbies ever see outside a Windows environment. And if the initial learning curve's too steep, it might be all they ever see. Seriously, if things don't work, won't boot, the system looks fried, and your girlfriend's going to FREAK if she can't check her email when she gets home, and she'll be home any minute, and... Well, you know. :-\

BTW, does Grub have a lot of online help built into it? You have to admit, sitting there in front of some foreign command promt whose ways are unkown to you, with the possibility of just one typo screwing things up so *neither* system will boot properly, is a bit scary. [Yes yes, I know you can go back and fix/redo it later, but in the meantime... EEEK, no system! Know what I mean?]

Hmm. Guess I should save the Grub questions for a separate post. This one's wandering all over the place, and getting pretty long. And on that note...

In a World Without Walls, who needs Windows and Gates?

Patrick.

Quote (the Missing M @ Mar. 21 2007,21:34)

Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 12 2007,03:42)

Solution for what? The usual bootloaders are sufficient for the conditions you've described. Seems like reinventing the wheel with a square peg.

A harsh assessment, but still...

It wasn't harsh.

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I do see the point of curanga's original post though, and it is a good one. M$ programs and systems do not play nicely with others, as you've probably noticed.

My mileage varies from yours, and I disagree with you that curaga's idea is helpful with respect to interoperability or dual booting. The latter is something which is better handled in better ways. Maybe it's my background working with NT, but it and XP and Vista are all relatively friendly when it comes to sharing space on a hard drive with another OS.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/h/2337

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So... If Windows or the hardware won't let you boot an alternative OS (and why would M$ want to let you do that?)

Why wouldn't they? In curaga's idea, there's a legitimate hardware issue (lack of floppy drive). Windows (NT and beyond) itself is neutral as to how you load other OSes. One basic way to do it is explained in the link above -- edit BOOT.INI and chainload GRUB (or LILO or whatever).

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So Norton probably keeps an eye out for weird stuff, like for example, some upstart app screwing around with the MBR... Gotta be up to something.

Upstart? Weird? Find a list of viruses (Norton lists them on their site and probably on your computer) and note how many affect MBR. Boot sector viruses are very common. (EDIT: They're very NUMEROUS. Less a problem now as floppies have become rather antiquated.)
http://www.viruslist.com/en/virusesdescribed?chapter=152540474

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Sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said. Old news to you, maybe, but it's *all* new to me.

Then I have another thing to ask of you. Please use parentheses instead of brackets. Ikonboard (forum software here) uses those brackets for formatting.

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I wonder if it's possible to reboot the machine, not just DSL, from within DSL, within Windows?

Why would anyone want or need to do that? Upon reboot, you'd either end right back up at BOOT.INI, GRUB, LILO, etc., or whatever you have.

Quote

I've been thinking, and reading a lot about boot-loaders lately, because really, it's the first thing most newbies ever see outside a Windows environment. And if the initial learning curve's too steep, it might be all they ever see. Seriously, if things don't work, won't boot, the system looks fried, and your girlfriend's going to FREAK if she can't check her email when she gets home, and she'll be home any minute, and... Well, you know. :-\

Bootloaders shouldn't be noticed. They're only there to ask the user what to do (if there are any boot options) and to do it.

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BTW, does Grub have a lot of online help built into it?

Nope. Certainly not in DSL.
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html

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You have to admit, sitting there in front of some foreign command promt whose ways are unkown to you, with the possibility of just one typo screwing things up so *neither* system will boot properly, is a bit scary.

That's an issue where curaga and I didn't see eye to eye about the same time this thread was active (check the dates when you reply?). My position is that things like bootloaders and anything written to MBR aren't to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of people who lack experience and/or knowledge. Typos are trivial -- those can be corrected fairly easily.

Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 21 2007,16:16)

Quote (the Missing M @ Mar. 21 2007,21:34)

I do see the point of curanga's original post though, and it is a good one. M$ programs and systems do not play nicely with others, as you've probably noticed.

Okay, thanks. :-)

All I knew was, these things have to be reset whenever you install or upgrade Windows, because it tends to rewrite the MBR on installation. I've also noticed that it's near-impossible to map some extensions to some applications in XP (.htm to any browser that's not IE, for example. Try it). Found a utility to get around it, but this is the wrong board for that. Guess I should change my .sig too. :-\

Right now I can't get direct access to the BIOS, and from what I could find online, that's a pretty common condition with Compaq Armada 1700 laptops. But from what you just posted, looks like I won't need direct access. :-) Thanks again.

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So Norton probably keeps an eye out for weird stuff, like for example, some upstart app screwing around with the MBR... Gotta be up to something.

Upstart? Weird? Find a list of viruses (Norton lists them on their site and probably on your computer) and note how many affect MBR. Boot sector viruses are very common. (EDIT: They're very NUMEROUS. Less a problem now as floppies have become rather antiquated.)http://www.viruslist.com/en/virusesdescribed?chapter=152540474

Yeah. Weird stuff like that. And if an application did that kind of thing without my asking it to, I'd feel pretty suspicios about it myself.

Please understand that I'm coming at this from a Mac background, and have very rarely used, or needed, an antivirus scanner or firewall until recently. OS 9 though, so it does need regular restarts, and a confused/misbehaving app can crash the system.

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Sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said. Old news to you, maybe, but it's *all* new to me.

Then I have another thing to ask of you. Please use parentheses instead of brackets. Ikonboard (forum software here) uses those brackets for formatting.

Sorry, old habit. But I've noticed that on boards like this, it only formats the ones it recognizes as tags. I will avoid using them in future replies to you though, if you find them annoying.

(BTW, this; :-) is intentional. I'm not too fond of iconic smileys myself, but disabling them in my replies to others also forces *quoted* smileys into text-mode, which is probably not what the original author had in mind.)

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Bootloaders shouldn't be noticed. They're only there to ask the user what to do (if there are any boot options) and to do it.

Quote

BTW, does Grub have a lot of online help built into it?

Nope. Certainly not in DSL.
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html

Umm, actually...
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#help

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That's an issue where curaga and I didn't see eye to eye about the same time this thread was active (check the dates when you reply?).

First time I saw it was just yesterday, and the last post was only a week old.

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My position is that things like bootloaders and anything written to MBR aren't to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of people who lack experience and/or knowledge.

Absolutely not, which is why that `help' command looks so good right now. :-)

My position, or guess at least, was that DSL, like Knoppix, like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, KDE and others (please let's not talk about Linux XP...) are meant to offer a smooth entry-level learning curve. Kind of `Welcome to Linux!' systems. Not that they lack power at all, but that they're intended to make for a smoother transition. Gateway distros, if you will, which can only lead to the hard stuff. ;-)

So naturally, I wondered how to make one of the earliest, and potentially one of the most frustrating steps a little easier (eg, risking an HD that won't boot, which would prevent you from going online to look up the answers to your problems for a while. Something to consider, if one owns only one machine).

Okay, this has totally drifted now, and I really should start a new thread for it, if any.

There is one big advantage in this method: it can be all done from Windows! (even XP or Vista)
So tablet pc's and so, which can't boot from floppy, cd, net, usb... Can use fdisk and rawrite to get DSL running, and then install a "proper" bootloader, if they wish...

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